Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Welcome. Welcome. Welcome.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Hi, everybody.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I'm very excited for our call today.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Ii love all the calls.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And this call is. it's we're not gonna do like a lot of
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): processing. It's like a lot of information. But I find the information really fun. I'm hoping that you all will as well. We're gonna be looking at
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): program structure which I know a lot of, you have been asking about components that go into programs. We're gonna talk about bonuses. And we're gonna talk about pricing big pricing question. But before
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): we get to all of that, as we get started today, we've 2 h today. First thing
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it's important to share. I've been sharing this. I shared it also in the Facebook group, and I want to share it again here
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if you haven't started on your curriculum yet. if you have it either opened up the first resource sheet, or even if you have, but usually not really
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): no big deal.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I know you're like what.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): we are here for many weeks, because for some of us we're just like out the gate going right away. Yay. but also yay, if that's not what your natural pacing is, if that's not what your natural rhythm is, you might be more like me. II usually like
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): don't even show up for the first call or 2 of a program email. Yet I look right like II so you might have my kind of pacing where it just takes you a while
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to get started.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's okay. Why, why is one pacing better than the other? Society might say, we have a slower right? But that's that's not actually true.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Maybe you got started right away. But then you hit some resistance.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Guess what?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's okay, too. No big deal to that one also, and I don't mean to invalidate anybody's feelings. By the way, but what II just want to remind you that this is all. We're part of the human process
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): great. And that's why we're here. wherever you are right now, with your curriculum. I trust that that's exactly where you need to be.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And I also trust that if you want to get going or get more going. you can start that today today.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So if I'm speaking to you right now.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): how can I help?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Let's take a few minutes. What's standing in your way, or what do you need to know in order to get going, or what do you need to put in place in order to get going?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Caroline?
Caroline Holke: I'm finding for me that I'm putting too much information in. And so it's the pairing back. It's the
Caroline Holke: yeah, making the decisions
how to
Caroline Holke: define the scope. That's where I'm having such a hard time right now.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah. Is there? Do you think it's just a matter of just deciding which I can give you some tips on that in a moment. Or do you think that there's a fear.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): or like a limiting belief that standing in your way of making those decisions, ID all of the above.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah. So what's the what's the fear or the limiting belief?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Things out that you know that it's
Caroline Holke: I. Wanna provide value. I wanna make sure that they're.
Caroline Holke: you know. I think there's a little bit of a fear of. If I don't provide all this material content, then they won't get to that final milestone they won't get to, you know the promised
Caroline Holke: and state of the hero's journey that I've also. and kind of wishy-washy and defining.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, all the uncertainty that goes into.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay. So there's a there's a couple of things in there. First of all, I want to point out for you and for everybody that th. The 2 things that you said that you kind of put together are actually 2 separate things. So one is, I'm not providing enough value.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and one is, what if I need all these steps to get to the end result?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And usually when we have a fear about the first, I'm not providing enough value, or I need to keep on providing more and more and more value. I'm not valuable enough
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that it leads us to conclude that we need to put every single last step in, and there's no other way that someone can achieve a result. So first, I'm just pointing that out to.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I know it's easier to say, and you know you've you've been in sacred depth, and even we've done some of the work here of just rewiring the belief. But for now I'm just gonna say it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): You are already valuable. The program will be valuable. And, in fact, this is for everybody.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): The most valuable programs have less
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): content versus more content.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Anyone could look online or go into AI or listen to podcasts
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and get. I'm, gonna say, like at least 70% of the content that any of us have here, myself included.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's not why people are buying courses
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): with us.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, so that's one thing. I want you to really the
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): conflate, the the value piece with with the whatever. Now I heard. What I heard you say at the end is well, even the results. You're not exactly sure. And so that's causing confusion. So can you share the results that you have in the Facebook group, so that I will comment and give some tosses, and other people can as well. Let's just nail that. I have a feeling we can in the next day or 2,
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then from there.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Then last piece, I want to say is, the good news about taking pieces out is that it's not like cutting hair where it's gone forever. We could just
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): pick it out of that word document and put it to live somewhere else. We can always flip back in if we need it right? So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so my my invitation would just be to remember that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And as you look like whatever you're like, you know what? That's a great piece of information, but actually don't think it's necessary in this course to get to the end result. Just put it on another word document for
Caroline Holke: either later or for a bonus. We'll talk about bonuses in the chat. I don't think I'm in that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): If I can't, I'm not gonna like be able to do it. We're talking, but if not, if nobody else does. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Nina.
Nina von Feldmann: Hey? Hi! So
Nina von Feldmann: couple of things. I'm the way I'm approaching. This is just taking it all in so that it lands in my brain so that I move forward. I can use this as a framework. As things are coming in. This is a very intuitive process for me.
Nina von Feldmann: I have one of my. My challenges is I have a lot of different potential offerings, and none of them have quite risen to the surface. As far as this is the one I'm going to start to create the framework around and part of it is, it's still in the gestation process a lot of what I do. I've been coaching for
Nina von Feldmann: 15 years, but it's all really the the way that I coach is part of a hands on service, and people have their eyes closed. And so a lot of the information that is shared is in this
Nina von Feldmann: oddly physical it's it's a physical thing, I notice, when somebody's sitting in front of me, and I'm teaching them directly face to face, not teaching, but sharing and coaching and asking. It is an entirely different energy than when they're completely relaxed. And they're receiving. And they're just we're in this. Back and forth they enter. So part of it is in my brain how to translate. So I'm working on that. So it's kind of a intuitive, reformulating.
Nina von Feldmann: And then the other part is that one of the programs that I feel actually most passionate about is something I'm actually still learning. And again, it's physical. I'm in the process
Nina von Feldmann: of having the experience myself.
Nina von Feldmann: and how to translate that into helping others with it is not quite there yet. So that's one of my pieces.
Nina von Feldmann: and the Aha! Moment I had around this whole ball of wax is
Nina von Feldmann: the other day. I was thinking, it needs to be this longer program with an initiation. And then I'm like, actually, because I'm in this quasi in between phase and I have a lot of content in the one area that I usually do when people's eyes are closed.
Nina von Feldmann: I can just do that for an afternoon. It could just be a short program. It doesn't have to be long at all, and that was a good kind of way to crack that open a little bit more and try that on in a different
Nina von Feldmann: perspective.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I love that. It's such a great awareness and breakthrough and idea which I sense, will actually lead to what the next thing is. So I'd continue to sit with that and be with that and follow that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's one piece. Another piece is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if you're not in a rush, it's okay. Right. It just depends on when you want a program out there, or bigger program, right? But my sense that I'm getting from you is that it's not like need to know tomorrow, and that your process is so much about sitting with it. So you had this new come through.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): go in that direction while you sit with all the other pieces. See? What wants to emerge?
Nina von Feldmann: Yeah. And what's emerging right now while we're speaking? If I could just share what? What ha! What's happening is skin has always been my end. It's really about coaching. It's about how we transform our bodies from the inside out. And people come for skin and relaxation, and then they get a whole other thing. And
Nina von Feldmann: I just while you're saying this, I was just. It just came through that skin is my end. So if I offer the short skin information, be like basic skin care cause I'm launching a product line. That's also part of it. I've got a lot of things that are all happening right now, and that's about to launch. And as a member there's this extra content. So that's why I'm like. It's not quite yet there, but it'll happen.
Nina von Feldmann: But skin is my in, and this deeper, because so much of skin is about the internal process. And what I'm going through right now is a sugar, addiction, cessation, and that changes the skin. And so ultimately.
Nina von Feldmann: when I couch that I'm like, and what you can really do is change your relationship to sugar, and your skin will change.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's when the light bulb goes off and people will be like, Oh, right, that's a big thing. And then here's this other offering. So I could do the longer I'm getting speaking. Yeah, thank you. I'm like, oh, just make sense. So glad I got to speak it. Thanks everyone. Yeah. I'm so so glad, too. Really nice. I'm getting chills as you're speaking good, good good
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Marc, elite
Margalit Grunberger: me now. I'm very inspired. Never heard the word skin is in, so that intrigues me.
I raised my hand, cause I cannot, I can't not raise my hand. I just this is what I do. It's my resistance. I start.
Margalit Grunberger: and then I just stop.
Margalit Grunberger: II can't even find. I mean. I'm sure I can. But I search for my start of my hero and the end of my hero, my list, and I don't even know where it is like, that's how ridiculous this is.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But didn't we? A few weeks ago? Kind of look at some of it.
Margalit Grunberger: Okay. did you decide you hated that, or you just haven't thought about it since then. Other than my default way of being that I would love to change.
Margalit Grunberger: II tell myself that I don't know who my hero is any more, because my business has changed. You know it's transitioning, so I know one of the answers could be, just decide
Margalit Grunberger: and go from there because it's transferable to a lot of different heroes.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah. okay. I'm going to say something which you might hate
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for a moment.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Sometimes we change the habits of I start, and then I stop. And I started. So sometimes we change it by doing some deep inner work. And you know all the things.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then other times we change the habit
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): by being in a container like this and being uncomfortable, but just doing the next step, anyway, and then the next step, anyway, and the next step, anyway.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that's if it's okay with you. That's what I would like to invite you to do and my sense is, the next step is to take
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what we looked at last, or however it might have evolved, even if you hate it and share it with me. Share it on a Google Doc.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if you want, but only if it's not going to put off sharing it
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): within a day or 2
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): start to add some steps in there, cause you do have beginning and end of journey. I know cause we spoke about it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and just take the next step.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): however imperfect it is, and then I'll give some feedback. Possibly some other people will look and share. You can ask people also in the Facebook group. This is who I'm thinking about as a hero. What right? Whatever you want, or you just me. And then you'll just take the next step.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then you'll just take the next step.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and it's not gonna be perfect. And there are gonna be parts of your hero that we will possibly have missed, or it might be a little off one or 2 degrees this way or a little off that way, and it's not gonna matter, because it doesn't need to be perfect. What needs to be happen. What needs to happen is just to continue to be in the process.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): How does that feel?
Margalit Grunberger: Good. I just. I need to do it. I will do it. Okay, good. So will I. Can. I count on seeing something from you in the next? By the end of the day tomorrow.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Awesome, good yay! And for anyone else that just needed to hear what Marglee and I were just saying, take that in for you, too, for yourself, too, and post
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): post all of you that have already posted or sent me emails, you know, I'm like on top of it, and I'm here to help. And again, sometimes it's just take that next baby step. Ask for the support. Show me what you're working on already, even if it's just 3 sentences, and then we'll get to the next thing.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Joe!
Jo Longanilla: Hi! Hi! Everyone. So Joanna, thank you for this conversation. Involved with so generous, and was like, you know, I was trying. I was communicating with her, and she's like, just ask Joanna.
Jo Longanilla: So I am a combination of Caroline and Margly. and just like I am so aware of my resistance.
Jo Longanilla: and I cannot. I haven't been. I've been able to do a little bit, and my big, savage words are perfectionists and avoider.
Jo Longanilla: And it's like when I telling you to avoid.
Jo Longanilla: And when I start to think about things. I also have like this.
Jo Longanilla: the voices in my head is, oh, it's too woo-woo or fluffy, and no one's really gonna get it. It doesn't. Everyone already knows. And then I talk myself out of it. So it's just like I'm going in these circles. Yeah. So I'm so glad that you're sharing involved with me about the exchange of like, I hope to raise her so. Here's 2 assignments for you, the first one
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): post, what you already have.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and share specific questions with me. Does this seem to woo is a bl, whatever let's like. I was just saying with Margoli like I was saying with Carolyn like, Let's just let's get to the next step and get to the next step right it as imperfect as it is, even if it's just a little like I don't have that much it's like I'm still on the first day. Yes, yes, that is not even that is great
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): share that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And I'll help you get to the next place from there
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then. The second
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): piece of homework is like bonus homework. But if you can, I would love for you to go back. You can do exactly what we did in our first call with beliefs.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and you can either work with that. It needs to be perfect. Or what if it's too Wu.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and like slow slowly over the next couple of weeks, work with that a bit more. What is a high, a better belief?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Right? So maybe with the Wu is. Yes, some of it is Wu. But for my ideal person it is exactly what they need.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I I'm just making that up. It could be something else. Right? So what's a higher wisdom piece and and write on it and be with it? Okay.
Jo Longanilla: okay. they had all of that. Yeah.
Jo Longanilla: yeah, that feels that feels good and like, even if you just right now. And and this is for anyone, even though I want everyone to be paying attention to what we're looking at. If what you need is right now to share the goggle, the Google Doc, with me, like while we're in class, so that it's done, and it's there.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Do it right if that's what's going to get you to the next step.
Jo Longanilla: Okay.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): okay, thank you. I see that David and Jen and Monica all have their hands raised. I do have a lot of curriculum that I want to share for today. So what I'm gonna do is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I'm gonna take David for now and then I'm gonna move into looking at program components, and then I'll open up again at the end of our time for more questions and shares and support.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So, David, go ahead, and you're you're
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): doing so much.
Deva Munay: I am, I know, and I'm just like, Oh, my God thank you for your help on what I posted. And yeah, I'm just realizing, like, I don't even quite have that
Deva Munay: heroin's journey identify because I've been doing curriculum, but not in this way. And
Deva Munay: yeah, I'm just
Deva Munay: recognizing that there's this part of me that even though I've been teaching, and I've gotten all this great feedback at the end of like this course was life changing, and that there's some resistance still to putting out like impulse was like. And this is working toward what? And I'm just not like naming it. And
Deva Munay: so I'm just doing my inner work around like, Oh, where is my
Deva Munay: resistance of like feeling. I actually have something that's valuable or naming, or afraid of
Deva Munay: giving a promise that. What if I can't deliver that? So that's kind of where? What I'm bumping up against when I look at it. Yeah, I'm glad that you're naming it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And I think
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): because you are, it means that there is a desire, because you've been doing programs for a long time. And they're working. And so you could just be like, yeah, no, not right. But I think there is a desire to define a little more, so can you hold the resistance? There's no point in trying to like get rid of the fear of what if I don't deliver, you know, as you know, we're never gonna get rid of the fear, hold it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): make a list. If it's a very short list of what those results are. I see so many of it like. When I looked at your curriculum I saw it, and I think if you go back and especially look at your teaching points. You're gonna see it as well, David. That's also one of the reasons why, in my notes, too, I was saying to flip it so that the teaching points for each session come before the the sound journey cause I think it's gonna help you highlight
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): like some more of those steps.
Deva Munay: Okay. got it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah, you're welcome.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay? So Jen and Monica, I wanna hear
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): your thoughts and your shares. And I promise we'll have more opportunity as we go through our time together today.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): For now I wanna jump into looking at program structure and components.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So there's always a lot. What do I even mean by that? What I mean by program structure and components is, how long is my program? What kind of sessions is it in person. Is it virtual? What? What kinds of
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): classes or sessions
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): are included? I see a lot of people out there have QA. Sessions. So I'm gonna have QA. Sessions standard should be this long, or what whatever it is. And so I wanna kind of get more into what? What is the structure of each of your programs today? And and the very first thing just to start us off with is to say, you get to be
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): as creative as you. Just like you get to be as creative as you want. With your thought leadership.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): you get to be as creative as you want
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): with the structure of your program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And then the other thing, I'll just say the start is. the structure of the program is part of what helps someone learn the thought leadership
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): in addition to the container.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So we're not looking to do it. The way that when I say you get to be as creative as possible. We're not looking to do it. The way it needs a program needs to look this way. I want to throw that out the window. No program needs to look
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): any which way.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And so then the question becomes, how do you decide what the program structure is?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So what we don't want again, is to just throw things in willy-nilly. because other programs out there have other programs are 90 min or other programs are, have QA, sessions or other programs have this or that or the other thing. We wanna be intentional about how we create the structure.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And to start to be intentional. You wanna ask
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the following 3 questions.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what will best serve the curriculum?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What structure will best serve the curriculum? What structure will best serve the results
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that your heroes want to achieve
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what will best facilitate
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the results. And I'm gonna tell you what I mean by all of that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): This all in the chat.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the way we pick our structure, whether it's a one on one program or a group program
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): is all about
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what structure is needed in the end. What these 3 questions come down to, and maybe I should just simplify it. What these 3 questions come down to is what is going to help facilitate results
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for my heroes.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So I'm just going to give lots of different examples, and then we'll hone in. But first I just want to give some examples of what I mean by that?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Even in this program
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): we have some sessions that are 90 min, some sessions that are 3 h, etc. I'm not doing that to mess. Everybody's schedule up. I'm doing that because I I'm very clear for each topic that we look at. That's the amount of time that is required to for the learning, for that right, for the results of that that I want to achieve, that I want each of you to achieve. By the time we're done with that session.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Here's another example.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): In this program. There's different types of sessions. So for this kind of program, get it done right is, get it done sessions for many of you are gonna help facilitate
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the results
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that you want in this program. It's also going to serve the curriculum
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that's being taught.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I have a program that some of you have been in or are currently in called advanced depth. It's a year-long training
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that entire training is 2 and 3 day retreats. mostly virtual one in person.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I came up with the structure for advanced depth, because we we learn intensive semantic techniques to use with clients and for that curriculum, and to create the results of mastering those somatic techniques. It needs 2 days at a time, and then a big break for more practice
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): on it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I just give one other like thing to throw in the mix, and then we'll kind of get more.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Look at the details.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): here's another example. If you know that for your ideal client for a certain program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): they're not going to stick around for a year
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of a program, I'm thinking. I know Annelise has asked about this, etc., but you also have a longer journey with more steps that you know are needed to create the results.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): then play around with the structure. So, for example, can you add a virtual retreat in? That's 2 days or 3 days long to get more of the steps in in a shorter period of time.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I did that in life, changing courses both with our bonus marketing retreat.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then, with our facilitation retreat
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): in January.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Right? So you get you can play in order to make it work for you. That doesn't mean that sometimes we just have to leave some steps out sometimes that, too, right? But we can play with structure to make it work.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So the way I'm gonna kind of present this information is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): we're gonna kind of look at different aspects of program structures and components. And
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): as we continue to look, what I also want to remind you of is that
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): any
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): decision that you make about structure or component
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): has a pro and a con. Okay. so
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I have. When when I train in shadow. It is in person
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the pro, and it's because it needs to be in person. For the most part
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the pro of that is in person. It's so. I mean, it is like through the roof, powerful and the experience is is bar none
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): but the con of that is that
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): people have to come and be in person
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): with me. Right? And that takes effort, and there's resistance
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): The pro of a longer session, a two-hour session, a 3 h session is that you have more time
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to share for processing right to for the journey. But the con is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): people have to put more time in their calendar right? And especially these days with zoom. Hopefully everybody stays till the end. But oftentimes most people don't. The longer a session is, and you have to hope that they will go and listen to the recording
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): great.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So we get to use our creativity. We want it always to serve the results. And there's almost always a pro and a con.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so let's talk a little bit about
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): how long a session time should be. If your program is in sessions versus along
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): retreat, or something like that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): How do you know if it should be a 60 min session, or a 90 min session or a 3 h.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Well, sometimes you don't know until you teach it, be honest.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But that's okay. So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): you wanna approximate. So if it's the first time that you're teaching
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a session. You're gonna take yourself through the session. Okay? And you're gonna so in my curricula, I always have every section that I'm O, almost every curriculum that I have every section that I teach. I approximate this is, gonna take 10 min.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): This is, gonna take 20 min. This is, gonna take 5 min. Right? So I'm I'm having approximations in there that give me a general sense.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I am always building in share time.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): but I know that if there's share time I can make that share time shorter or longer, depending on where I am in the session. So it's that kind of gives me some flex room.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And then here's the last thing.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): If you're getting short on time. be willing to cut something out.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and what that means is you can cut it out completely. You'll see in the moment. If it's actually needed or not. Right, it might not be needed at all. You thought you needed it beforehand, but you actually don't.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if you do. and there's just not going to be time for it. In that session.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): You let everybody know I'm gonna make a bonus recording on X topic and send it to you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and I have done that plenty
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of times. right? So there's no I'm sharing all of this to say there's no oh, my God! I need to get it exactly right, and if I don't get it exactly right, the whole thing is like blowing up and has failed.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): There's there's flexibility in the process, even if it's a one time course meaning a a retreat, or even like a 3 h thing.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): You can either cut things out or the people love. When you say you know what there's more I wanna share with you. And so, even though you are only getting 3 h. I'm gonna send you over the email another 30 min. Blah! Blah! Blah, right? You can always do that if need be. Don't always do it just to
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): who said it earlier, Caroline, to make sure you're valuable, right? Only do it if your heroes actually need it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Alright, let me pause here.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What's sparking? What's feeling important so far?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What ideas are popping?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What questions do you have.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Jen?
Jennifer Rose Gens: That would
Jennifer Rose Gens: so! What kind of
Jennifer Rose Gens: hooked at this in the chat like no one. Right? Answer. it doesn't have to be perfect. And
Jennifer Rose Gens: yeah, just
Jennifer Rose Gens: that we can. We can try it out. You said approximate. And you know, like.
Jennifer Rose Gens: okay, like, prep, do it first on for ourselves and then like, see how it goes, you know. Like.
Jennifer Rose Gens: yeah, I also liked having said like.
Jennifer Rose Gens: oh, I had a whole another half now, or like cool. I'm gonna record this for you. No, Biggie, it's like it takes a lot of pressure off. Yeah, exactly. E, exactly. We want to do our best upfront to prepare.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then, remember, we don't have to be perfect. It is a forgiving
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): process. completely
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): good Annelise.
Annelise Pesa: Now, I don't know if this is resistance, but I am as you were talking about, you know, the year long, or you know how long and 3 h, and how?
Annelise Pesa: How will it best serve the results?
Annelise Pesa: I started to think, as you know, a lawyer, and think, when I was a lawyer, that everything that was
Annelise Pesa: taking too much time was encumbering on my time. I don't, as a lawyer don't have time. Don't have it 3 h. Forget about it maybe an hour, and I'm thinking, how am I going
Annelise Pesa: to
Annelise Pesa: give value if they
Annelise Pesa: they're so stuffed for time? And so so I started thinking, maybe
Annelise Pesa: a retreat where they go away somewhere, like 3 days is probably
Annelise Pesa: maybe better, because you kind of.
Annelise Pesa: But then my idea and I've been working for this idea even before life changing courses. And I have like I have, you know. I will send it to you. It's like, Oh, my God! All the work that I've done. Now it's just useless. So I'm so I'm I'm sort of like
Annelise Pesa: panicking a bit.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So first of all, nothing that you've done is useless if you decide for it to be in a retreat. Form everything that you've done can be adapted to the retreat, I promise you, and it might be that it's a hybrid where it's
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): 2 sessions, a retreat, and 2 sessions. Right? II am positive that we will find a structure and a format. That's right for you. I love that. You're starting to think you know. How. How can this happen? So that's number one. Don't worry. I promise
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it will fit
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then there was something else I wanted to say.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So sometimes
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the time resistance for people is something that we can talk them through right. And we can just name that they want to get it done right away. But really, if they really want this result, this is just the truth of the process. They need to go to
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): other times. That's not appropriate.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Like, for example, new mothers. They probably can't sit through 3 h every week because there's so many things going on. Lawyers might fit into that category as well. Where it doesn't matter how much we speak to the resistance, it's not gonna right. So in that case we really do
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): have to
Annelise Pesa: match the format. Hmm
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to what they can do.
Annelise Pesa: even if it means pulling the end of the journey back by a few steps, so that the the promises at the end are a little bit
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): different.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then we cover the rest of the journey in another program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So I'd love for you to play around with what it would look like as a retreat, knowing that you can also add sessions before and or after as well, and see if that feels. You know how that feels for a lawyer type.
Annelise Pesa: Yeah.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And Annelise, I think just the last thing that I want to toss without processing right now, but if it resonates, you know you can take it. Is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): true? I know enough lawyers to know that it is true what you're saying.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and watch for where you're limiting beliefs
Annelise Pesa: are as well.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so that you don't box yourself into so much of a hole around how much time they're willing to spend.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Maybe the kind of lawyer that you're speaking to is not every lawyer out there, but it is a subset of lawyer that is willing to devote a little bit more time to this.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Kelly. you're welcome.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): I am definitely having some thought, some thoughts in the realm of what and at least with sharing, just in thinking about high level leaders and and what's involved. And I think it's very much
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): a blend of what's needed to deliver the content and help them get the results. And that met with what they're willing
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): and available to do. And I know. I think.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): where I'm dancing a little bit is in dancing, or I'm dancing again in this space between like high liver, high level leaders in organizations, and then high level people who are doing their entrepreneurship or or visionary work. They have like
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): kind of different schedules in terms of what they're willing to offer up. And I you know I'm just. I keep thinking of all the different comments I have heard over the years of like, oh, I would love to do one of your shorter retreats because they kind of want the breakthrough and don't necessarily feel like they have the space for the longer transformation. And so I'm kind of trying to accommodate
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): for that, as I'm thinking of
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): my programme, and also aware that sometimes higher level leaders don't want to be sharing
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): their personal stuff like they don't want to be talking in a group about.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): you know the deeper layers of what's going on for them, especially if colleagues are in that space. So I'm just, I'm just feeling into like, what might that look like that? Can really.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): you know what they're needing? And in a way, sense.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): this is important for you and for everybody. You wanna find a balance
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of what can that look like
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): versus knowing the difference between willing and able.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): Yeah.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right? So I'm gonna give an example of that in my own work. So in advance, as I said earlier, what you know, you're in advance.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We have an in-person retreat. Didn't Charlotte?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Now some people just flat out are not able. Period end of story to come in person.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Other people are able. but they
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): don't think they are when they first hear
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that there is an in-person retreat.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And so it's my job. When I share about advance.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to name that. and to say. I know
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that it is really difficult
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to get out of your house
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to make the plans, to leave everything behind, and it is an expense also. And to to come to Charlotte right?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I that is difficult, and I don't like leaving my house and leaving my kids and and doing that either, right? And and II mean it
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right. I name it, and I normalize it and and acknowledge it and honor it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And then, I say, and here is the thing.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We can only do this work
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): in person. If you want
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to go deep right into learning shadow and to really learn the techniques and to have that incredible transformate. You know all of that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): It must be in person right? And I explain all the reasons why and and all all of that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): everybody who had resistance about coming in person do they all raise their hand and sign up, and it's all like unicorns and rainbows forever. No, but the people that are meant to be in the room.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): do they? Yes. right. And so we can
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): do that when it comes to in person when it comes to how long, when it comes to sharing right wh. Whatever the issue is. And this is what we looked at part of what we looked at last week as like one of the steps in the beginning of the container as well as one of the steps in the marketing is, speak to the resistance name it normalize, it and then explain why you're making the invitation anyway.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): tina.
Live: you hear me, okay. I think what I'm what I'm hearing from you and correct me if I'm wrong, is where the structure of the
Live: course of the program. I think it really has to fit your own energetics like, where are you at? Right? It's like the last one. I don't know, cause maybe I'm confused. Cause, like the last one that I did.
Live: I was going through some personal things that then when I found some tools.
Live: I was like, Oh, my God! I gotta share this with my audience, and then I mean, that's kind of how the program was birthed. But then it's like, II don't know. Am I? Am I putting too much weight on what my energetics are? Of what I'm able to offer? Or should I scratch myself?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah. So it's such a great question. Okay? So first and foremost, the structure, like I said. it always can I yield the result right? Can I? Will this structure
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): allow my hero to co-create results, so that that always we always need a yes.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): on the components, on that, or else we're not doing ethical right marketing and all the things
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that being said? Yes, like sometimes alongside with that is what am I up for? What would feel most joyful for me? Or what do I have the energy for, or what are am I excited about? So I am thinking. For example, I had a client once who's doing a lot of programs that were ongoing every week, and a lot of connection and all the things.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And we were looking to add a next level program to her, her suite of programs, and
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): she was just like having so much resistance. And she's Joanna. I do not have the energy to hold another container that is so tight where I'm with and tracking people every week or every other week.
Yeah.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And I was like, great. So what if it's a day long, once a month, or 2 day long every other month.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Could you achieve those results, and does that feel like a better match for the energy that you have
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for this? So I'm glad that you're bringing that piece in, Tina, because we do want to consider that if it feels heavy and awful for us to have a weekly, or to have a 3 day, maybe for somewhat right
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): then. No, we that's we have to find another way. We shouldn't just slug along.
Live: Okay. So it's kind of like a balance of the 2. Correct like. It's your energetics what you're able to offer, and then also a little bit of like, if if you think it will help the hero's journey be successful? Maybe stretch yourself a little bit, but not to where you feel like you're taxed. That's right. Exactly right
Live: as well. Thank you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Carlita.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): Hi, Juliana.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): I wondering. So I have. I've been experimenting with group work for the first time in the form of having a bunch of local college girls come to my home once a month, and we talk about love and relationships and all this sort of stuff.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): and
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): it's an unpredictable group. It changes every time. There's new people there, people who weren't there last time. I don't have a set curriculum. I kind of let the themes emerge, you know. Oh, we're talking about communication skills today. Oh, we're talking about shame, like you know, whatever it might be.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): are there, but it feels like it's because it is loose like that. It's hard to introduce a structure, or at least I haven't found the way yet where I could kind of, you know, organize. This is how we're gonna go today. I kind of like to let it arise organically. And yet, you know I'm like, what? How could I do this better? You know I'm getting to play with working with these wonderful kids, and
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and how it sound to me like it's working. What's not working about it?
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): I kind of feel like, part of me wants to structure like, wants to know that. Okay, like, like something really deep, can come up with somebody or something that that I could go into a whole teaching around, or bring in a whole conversation around, or something like this.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): and it's kind of like, am I sacrificing something by not going deeper here? Are we, you know. Is it working to try and give everybody attention like what's on your heart today. You know. I'm kind of wondering, you know.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): I kind of feel like after the sessions. I feel like so much was left on the table, which, of course, is just part of the nature of being the other 2 HA month. But I guess I'm kind of saying, might it be better to do otherwise?
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): They're thrilled with the end of it. They're it's so. It's been amazing like we love it. But I just wondering what else I might do to play with. You know this.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, good. So first, I'm hearing it might just exactly as it is, and you don't have to care too much then, either, like it's it could really be a case of it ain't broke. Don't fix it especially because it is such a right? So I I'll toss some things. But I'm not like prescribing them necessarily. It's if you wanna play. And I'm gonna pick up specifically on the
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): knowing what's on people's hearts piece like, how do you get through the pieces but know what's on? P. So maybe the one structure piece every time
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): is that either in the beginning
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): or at the end, there's an opportunity for everybody to share, kind of like how we do in advance where I go, and each person and we time it, and everybody has 2 or 3 min, or whatever it is right. So that there my senses you can probably make space for that unless it starts getting too big. If it does get too big, you can divide people into groups of 3 or 4.
They get to do that right. But maybe that's that's the piece of structure, is.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): It's all loose. But you know, every session there's gonna be a time where everybody has opportunity to speak.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): Yeah, we've been doing that. And I've been, you know, like, kind of working with that as a structure at the beginning.
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): and you get it feels like it's hard not to like. Do the deep dive on like. Oh, this is upright. Let me know. Let's just roll into it, and we've been doing that. So maybe it is like it's not broke. Don't fix it, but, you know, cause it's just like, Oh, you're sharing. Oh, let's talk about this real quick. Let's go into this, you know, real quick. And maybe for me, what I needed to do is just acknowledge we're not gonna cover everything. I would love to share
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): this topic right now. There's so much more that's here, and we're not going to do it. So I don't want you to feel like this is the end of
Karlita Nabours-Palermo (she/her): the answer, or the end of the solution that you're looking for, or the end of the conversation or the type of program that this is where you haven't made such
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): specific marketing promises. That is absolutely appropriate.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that just help me find the words I needed to address what feels like it's happening. Thank you.
Monisha Mittal: Thanks, Joanna. So this has been helpful conversation, because basically, in my 2 po playgroups at the earlier part of the year, you know. Just a couple of noticing like. Yes, I was energetically exhausted by the end of each
Monisha Mittal: and it just really struck me. I'm like, Oh, my God, this is just like 5 people in each one like, you know, what's it gonna be when it gets really big. But I also noticed, you know everybody loved the intimacy of the one on ones. And then, you know, with the embodied playwork
Monisha Mittal: the group stuff is really important because it facilitates play. But I noticed you know, unlike regular groups. I do that aren't, as you know, conscious raising. I noticed that. You know, people sometimes didn't even want to maybe
Monisha Mittal: share they. They want to do the movements like solo for themselves and didn't necessarily want to take it to the next level and the next levels of integration with other people, because we were working with some very intimate stuff. And so II have a similar question around you know, structures. Because I wanna figure out how to
Monisha Mittal: allow people the Nmc they need, and then kind of jump up to some of the greater visibility that leads to some of the more advanced stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And I know it might be a structure question, Monica.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): but I actually think it goes back to some of the pieces we were talking about last week in terms of
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): resistance, and it goes to containers also. So I'll just briefly right now say a couple of things. Number one. at least. My philosophy is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I I'm gonna try to push you to do the things. But everything is your choice, right? Everybody has agency. And if you you don't wanna share, or you don't wanna do this thing. I honor that 100% y beautiful. And also, are you willing? Right? So that's number one. We don't. A. And I know you know that. But I'm just saying that for everybody. But then from there it sounds like it would be really helpful for you both at the beginning
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): as well as as you go into certain exercises, to speak to the resistance around vulnerability, and to like honor and acknowledge it and normalize it, and then also speak to how you can feel that. And this is why you still might wanna be uncomfortable and do the share anyway. Right. And and just give give people that invitation by naming, normalizing
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then giving them a way to do it, and a reason to do it.
Monisha Mittal: Yeah. And and then I do think the structure piece is is more like around, like a group coaching format and figuring out the sequence between the bonus, one on one sessions that are, you know cloud through the time, and then and then up leveling to the group. So I think
Monisha Mittal: you know, probably needing just some assistance on how to think through that at some point.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We're gonna look a little bit more at some of that right now and then. Also ask specific questions.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Jen.
Jennifer Rose Gens: having some wheels turning here.
Jennifer Rose Gens: if
Jennifer Rose Gens: I haven't actually led a group program before. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, I want it to be a year long or 9 month.
Jennifer Rose Gens: You know, just kind of with the day that we've been talking about. I'm just starting to think like, would you suggest maybe doing a shorter one that even just funnels in. So that I even like, know what it's like to run a group program first.
Jennifer Rose Gens: I didn't know that you had. I just assumed you had. I feel pretty honestly, I feel pretty confident about it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I mean, if it's if it's help sometimes it is helpful to do something short. I mean, I definitely did all week programs before I did year long program, you know. But I don't want to say yes, absolutely. You or anyone else listening who hasn't before. You can't start with a year long, you can, but if it, if it will feel easier and lighter, and a way and easier, just way into the flow. And to know that you're practicing. Yeah, do a shorter one for us, do a month long, or whatever it is.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if nothing else, especially if you're doing a year long. Having a month long is a nice
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): way to
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): bring people into, so it can be both a a course, and a marketing kinda situation.
Jennifer Rose Gens: Okay? And then, second part to that question is.
Jennifer Rose Gens: could I like repeat review or review material that I taught
Jennifer Rose Gens: and just like even, maybe give people a discount that have already done the 12 week container or not. Because experiencing material more than once is really really helpful and helps.
Jennifer Rose Gens: Okay, yeah, interesting. It almost feels like more work to do the funnel. But also maybe not. Maybe it would just be easier. Okay.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Emily is asking in the chat, do you say we didn't get to this due to time? So I'm gonna send you a bonus recording, or do you just say I'm gonna send you the recording. It's totally your choice. And every situation is gonna be different. A lot of times. I'll say, you know, we didn't get to this today. And so I'm gonna send you a bonus recording other times. I'm gonna say, I'm just gonna send you a bonus recording it. It just
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): depends. It mostly depends on if I've promised it already on the sales page or not, and just also, every now and again I'll add an extra live class versus doing it in recording. If I know it's something that needs absolutely needs to be experienced. Live.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Courtney is writing. The timing is such a hard and anxiety. Inducing piece for me is a very time blind, neuro divergent facilitator. So glad you're naming that Courtney or not the only one I'm oddly much better at having a loose plan and reading the room in the moment, and then adapting as I go. But that isn't sustainable or scalable. I'm just naming this to diffuse its energy for myself right now. So I don't let go. Let that story get in the way.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yes, I'm so glad
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that you're writing all that, and also, Courtney. I can't see you. I wanna see talking and talk directly to you. Hold on! How are you and my screen here? There you are.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I know you're not asking for thoughts or ideas, but I'm gonna just toss this not as a need to, but is something to think about?
Great. Thank you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What would it look like to fully claim? You are neuro divergence as a superpower
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): from the get go even in the marketing and the program structure.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And to let people know
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): this is how my brain works. And because this is how my brain works. This is what you. These are the beautiful things you get from me like the intuition, all the things. And what that also means is that I'm a little time blind.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So I'm gonna say, each of our calls are 2 h. Sometimes we're gonna end an hour and a half, and we're not gonna know, I think sometimes until we get there. And sometimes we're gonna go the full 2 h. But I'm baking that in, because this is how I lead that
Courtney Reed-Marsh (they/them): interesting that feels so vulnerable, but also
Courtney Reed-Marsh (they/them): relieving, because it's honest.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah. And it might take pressure off of you to have to fit in a certain way. It's just like this is what we're starting with. This is the agreement among all of us, and the reason why we're doing it this way is because this is how I operate best and can support you best.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So I don't know just something to think about.
Thank you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah, you're welcome.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Sharon is saying. Everything is in service of what's best for the client. Yes, and you can make adjustments. Yes.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): okay. Anika, saying that this is taking pressure off. I'm so so happy.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, good. I'm not going to read everything in the chat. If there's something you know, raise your hand if I'm not covering. If there's a question in there.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, speaking of time and how we can throw some things out or make adjustments in time. I was gonna show us all I was gonna have us all together, watch a Youtube video. That is sweet. It's not very long. And it's all about how people learn but we're not gonna do it. I'm gonna put it into the chat.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's for you to list to watch on your own. It's a cartoon, I think you'll enjoy it, but I'm going to tell you the gist of the video right now.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): in the times that we have.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I am the time that we have, which is the whole video is basically explaining how adults learn
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and how
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): we learn well enough when we hear things.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But then we actually learn better if we hear something and we see it, which is why you might want to include resource sheets or slides when you teach.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But then how we learn best
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): is when
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): we hear something, and we get to talk about it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's how we learn best and integrate when we hear something.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and we get to talk about it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And I'm bringing this up. Now we're gonna go way deeper into this when we look at crafting exercises. And this is part of it is we get to experience it also, and all of that. But the reason why I'm bringing this up now is that
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): this plays into our program structure.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): because, as we create what the sessions are.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We want to think about the difference between
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): sharing information.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): processing information
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and implementing information.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): sharing processing, implementing. Now. in all of our training sessions in this program the reason why I have opportunities for shares
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a lot.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We don't do so much journaling in class. And in this program as in some of my other programs, but it it serves the same purpose. It is to help process information, help speak about it right? So that learning goes deeper.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Are you with me so far on that. so we can include these things all in one session.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that that being said, I wanna go through
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and you all have a resource sheets sheet on this
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a whole range. This is not exhaustive, but a whole range of types of what I'm calling components
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that you may or may not, because we don't want to include everything under the sun in a program. But if it's going to serve
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the hero co-creating results you want to think about including it either as its own session or as part of a session.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): one kind of component is what I would call content sessions.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's today I would call mainly a content session. This is generally where you're sharing thought, leadership and content.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): part of it is creating exercises or experiences for your participants to process or learn or to share, like we're sharing today.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Right? So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a a, almost any program, although not all are going to have content sessions.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): content sessions can be online in person and any length of time.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's the most standard kind of session
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that we think about when we think about programming.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But there are some others that I want to kind of toss to you to be thinking about. That can help your clients learn, process, integrate, implement, achieve results.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So another type of session.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): our Q&A sessions.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Now those, again, can be baked in to content sessions, or you can have separate sessions that are fully devoted to participants being able to ask questions, get coached.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): have their work looked at
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right for those of you that are in sacred depths or embody or advance. You know that for those programs we have 2 Q&A sessions a month where anybody can bring anything to the table
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and ask
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if you're gonna have a session. That is just QA.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I like to. The way I set those sessions up is II always start them with some kind of short content. In the beginning.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a short journaling
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): exercise, or a different kind of exercise, or a short piece of piece of teaching
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to get people activated, focus
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and even to start to generate some questions that they might wanna ask during the QA. Session. It's harder to just start a. QA. By like going in and starting a. QA. So I always like to at least have a few minutes in the beginning with something
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): there.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Later in the program, we'll look at some best practices for facilitating QA. Calls cause. I know that. For some people a lot can come up around. Oh, my God! Am I gonna be able to field questions? And you know all of that. We'll we'll look more at that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I'm gonna go through these pretty quickly, cause you have them all in resource sheet. And again a reminder. I'm not telling you to include all of these in your programs.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And but these are just different things to think about, to help people again, integrate process, embody implement
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): your thought leadership, right? What you're teaching in the content.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We don't ever wanna program. That is just pure content and nothing else.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Again, people can go online for that. But also that's not what learning is.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So another type of component is what I would call an integration session.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I do this a lot within programs. And then there's some programs that I have specific integration sessions for. So in in Lcc, here, we're doing it within each session. It's this is devoted to participants being able to go deeper with what they've learned to ask questions to share. You know, I like to ask questions for integration. What's been resonating? What have you been learning?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What are some things that have come up as you've been? If I taught a technique that that you've been teeth, that as you've been practicing the technique, etc., their opportunity to take the content that was already learned and go deeper with it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): You can say, isn't that Q&A. And if that's you can look at it as a Q&A. But this is more less. What questions do you have for me?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And more? Let's have a discussion about the insights that you're having about what you're learning about, what's resonating, about what new ideas are coming for you participants to articulate and also to share with the rest of the group
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for their benefit and value.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So in advanced in my advanced depth training, which is a year long, training for coaches and therapists devoted to
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): learning more advanced somatic processes and a lot about shadow. The way that that program is set up. As I mentioned earlier. We have our our retreats where we learn certain techniques.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then we have integration sessions. And this is optional. Not everybody comes because they don't have the time for it, but for the people that come, it's so valuable. 2 weeks, usually 2 or 3 weeks after we have a 2 or 3 day retreat.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We have a 90 min integration session where people get to share. Okay, I've been practicing the technique. This is what I've noticed. This is where it's worked. This is where it hasn't worked. This is what I'm noticing inside of me, and we use all of that as a jumping board to go deeper into learning the nuances of the techniques to in to integrating them. More
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): is this helpful? As I lay out kind of these different components? Okay?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And thank you, Carlita, for giving love too advanced in the chat.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, another type of session. Get it done, sessions. I don't have to say too much about that. You know that from this course.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Your course only needs a get it done. Session. If there are results that people are looking to create that are a on the outer level. Right? So any kind of writing, whether it's writing curriculum or writing a book or writing
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): marketing, etc.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): maybe your courses about creating art, and you are teaching foundations of creating art, and possibly even having exercises. But you want separate time in your course for actual, just pure art making right? Get it done. Art making.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Maybe you're teaching about organizing your house, and you're and you know you're looking at inner pieces. What's holding you back from organizing, and you're teaching outer pieces on how to organize. And then maybe you have a get it done. Session where it's 90 min, and everybody is organizing their desk drawer during that time. But they're doing it together as a community so they can actually get it done. Maybe you're teaching about taxes.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right? And you're teaching all the ins and outs, and maybe the fears and all giving instruction. And then everybody in the group does their taxes together during a get it done.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): you may wanna add, as a separate session, or integrated in what I call workshopping.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So we did this 2 sessions ago. I didn't really teach new content. It was after we learned about steps. but then we had a class where I asked people, let's take a look at the work you're doing right. I put it. We looked I should. We shared screens, and I used a couple of people's examples to workshop so that everybody could learn
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): from it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Just share a couple of others in sacred depths. We have an optional component that happens every other week that we call small group discussion sessions.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): This is where people can come together, and I have questions set up beforehand, and they get broken into breakout rooms of 3, 4, 5 people, and then everybody gets to give their opinions on client case studies. Or you know, I ask opinion questions on things that we've learned.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Some people don't want to do that, but for the people that come it, it's so valuable because they get to have what much deeper discussions on content that they've learned where everybody gets multiple shares.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So those are just some examples.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Really, sky's the limit. You can get creative. I'll just share briefly a few other types of things, maybe to achieve results in your program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): A component that is helpful is an accountability partner. Right? Where people get partners in sacred depths. We have practice partners, people learn
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): coaching and transformational techniques, and then they get to practice them in advance steps. I integrate the practice time into our retreats so that people don't have to devote extra time
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if they don't want to.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I almost did this for this program. But then I didn't, and I almost wish I would have but you can have networking sessions like community session, you know, maybe, especially at the beginning of a program where it's just an extra 90 min for people to get into different breakout rooms and introduce each other. Right? Maybe you give them 3 or 4 questions so that the community can form in a deeper
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): way, because sometimes that can help co-create more results as well.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay. So as I said, it's not exhaustive. And also we don't want to include all the things in any program. But I'll pause here.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What creative ideas are popping for you maybe jot down some ideas. And then also, I'd love to hear
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): one or 2 shares. What? What are you getting from this? Looking at different components? What's something fun or exciting?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What's popping.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and Jen and Kelly, before I call on you. I'm wondering if there's someone who hasn't raised their hand yet who
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): wants to share Christine?
Christine Walsh: I thank you.
Christine Walsh: as I'm working with
Christine Walsh: kind of a train, the trainer kind of or program. The idea of having the integration sessions as they're practicing the framework, and then coming back and saying, This is what I've been seeing as I'm working with other clients or people that they're working with is really. I didn't even think of that. So I love that idea of having its own session versus just maybe at the beginning of a
Christine Walsh: session, or at the end, and stuff like that. So having its own particular session. or even the practice, like doing a role model, or something like that, back and forth.
Christine Walsh: is really cool. So which also, then. which is my favorite idea of, I don't have to do all the work. That's right. That's right.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's right. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true, I mean, I don't prepare so for integration sessions. I don't prepare anything other than the questions I ask. You know. Every now and again, I might prepare a little bit just in case. But and it helps. I mean, we go so much deeper. And it's nice to have that space for people to practice, to come up against issues or to
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): not come up against issues and just see cool other ways of doing things, and and they share. and then in terms of practice and modeling, you know, same thing. So whenever I teach
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a technique, I'm gonna model it and then break it down, which doesn't.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I don't need to prepare for that, but it's so valuable to to model a shadow technique. And then with everybody in the room. What did you learn? What did I do there? Why did I make that choice? What happened? And then have people go and practice absolutely?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Jen.
Jennifer Rose Gens: have a clarifying question. So
Jennifer Rose Gens: 2 parts, when you teach a technique and then model it, would you still consider that content? Or would that be
Jennifer Rose Gens: kind of integration as well.
Jennifer Rose Gens: That would be my, I mean, I think it's part of integration. Oh, okay, yeah, I see that. And then you mentioned having an integration session after retreat.
Jennifer Rose Gens: And you kind of just spoke to it. But you like don't really plan much, and you just
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it's it's it's a group.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): The discussion lead the discussion. The group leads the discussion I facilitate and I add, and I deepen things. But it starts with the the things that everybody brings to me as they, after they've been practicing for a few weeks or working on you can do it. If also.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): if you teach a practice like a meditation practice. Right? Maybe you all practice it together, and then everybody goes off for the next 2 weeks on their meditation practice. Maybe then you want to have an integration session on. How did it go? Who did it? Who didn't? What did you notice what was hard about it? What are some cool things that you figured out for yourself. That could be helpful for everyone. You can do it in that kind of way as well.
Okay, cool. Thanks.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Kelly.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): Yeah, I love that. You leave these out in this way, Joanna, and a couple of things that are coming up for me is the idea of of doing like embodiment practices. So we have. It's always infused into the regular sessions or other retreats. But then to have a 90 min session where we just move. And of course, now I'm obsessed with the dance piece. But where we just move and like, build these things in and let it be practice. And I also. I had already put this in my
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): curriculum. But I love the idea of doing the integration which would be similar. I mean it. It could be that the embodiment piece is just built into the integration. But there's time also for QA. And exploration.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): and then one thing that I had done in previous programs, but they never like really got traction. We're doing these like happy hours or teat times, we call them, and we would just bring them in and do like
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): kind of online gate, like zoom games and and connecting getting to know you. But in ways that aren't just talking like, you know, curriculum that I use with that. But what was really tricky was getting people to show up, and what I'm thinking now is.
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): if retreats are built into my program. Then I just build this in these, for the people who showed up. They were one of the most favorite pieces, and people were blown away by how deep they were able to go with the games. And they're just fun. But
Kelly Lubeck (she/her): yeah, so that's what.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Thank you for sharing that. Yes, and it also speaks to results and supporting the journey, because your leaders need to lighten up a little bit and have fun in order to have more of the results that they're coming to you. For in this program. So it's this, it's so brilliant right to to do that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah, I love it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, yeah. And Tara saying in the chat, you have networking Sessions quarterly and the rule breakers front. I love it. Yes. okay, let's keep on going, because there's still a bit that I want us to take a look at
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): today.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay, this next piece. And just to think about
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): part of and I've spoken to this a little bit before, but part of how you're gonna set up your components. It has a little bit to do with your group size.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So different group sizes every group. Size functions a little bit differently. and some of you at the very end. First thing I wanna say is this, at the very end
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of the last session. Khalida shared this, and I don't know if everybody was here but I wanna and underscored. It was such a beautiful moment where Kalita was like. You know what? I realized that my work is best suited for a smaller group.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And I'm bringing that back again here
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to remind you all that more isn't always better
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): in the transformation, industry, coaching, industry, and the world out there. It's like more, more, more, more better, better, better. Better better.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Let's throw that out the window
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and remember that sometimes smaller is better.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and depending on what you're teaching and the depth of experience. Right? That you're going for
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the best is going to be a smaller group. So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): back to advanced steps
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): 24 is the limit in that group for me, and the sweet spot is really more like 20 to 22. Every now and again I'll make an allowance for one or 2 more people I'm like, oh, they would just add so much to the group like in the very end. But because we're doing
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): such deep work in that program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I can't have more than that amount of people in it. Number one. Cause I'm tracking
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): people right? There's just so much I can track that intensely. Number 2, because to keep with what I'm teaching and the techniques I'm teaching for every for to stay a safe container, it can't have a million people.
And also part of the point of that container is for people to really get to know each other too.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Right? So please, please, please
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): don't get caught up in the insanity of the transformational industry that only has one message that bigger is always better.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Khalida.
Kellita Maloof: Thank you. I just briefly want to acknowledge you. I'm right in the middle of the. It's.
Kellita Maloof: It's tricky if
Kellita Maloof: if it does need to be smaller as it does for me, and I don't want
Kellita Maloof: I don't want the price to be so high that I can't work with the people I wanna work with. I am holding the tension of it and actually having potentially having the train. The trainer aspect
Kellita Maloof: can make it a beautiful synergy, but it's still. It's a delicate puzzle which one, yeah, absolutely absolutely. No, it is. You have to it. You do have to hold the balance. Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah. Thank you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay. so
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): why am I bringing that up? Why am I bringing size up here when we're talking about components. Oh, I know, because
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): there are certain. And this isn't an exact science.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): but there are like certain, and I call them thresholds where you want to think about certain structures or components based on amount. So just very loosely.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I would say, if your group is 6 and under.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I would think of it as more of group coaching versus a course or or a mastermind.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): where, as a course, we think of like, there's this much amount of content. There's also processing and integration time. But the content that you've pre-prepared is driving the show
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): when you've got a group of 6 or under, or even 8 somewhere in there. Yes, you're still probably wanna prepare content. But it's more what each person brings to the table that's gonna be driving the show, and like how how you meet it. So when I have a group
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that's 6 or under, I prepare very little content. And I set. II structure it as I might do a little bit of teaching in the beginning. But really the whole session is I might start. Everybody gets to verbally share a celebration or something they've learnt recently. And then we're actually each person gets an opportunity to bring forward what they need support with
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the next. Again very loose category of numbers, not an exact science, but I'd say, like 6 ish
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to 24 ish, I would call more of a mastermind
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): where I am sharing a lot more content. But still there's a lot of space in in there for people to also bring. I mean, even in a big group like this. Hopefully, everybody is bringing and getting their needs met. But there's there's more opportunity to for PE for the people in the group, even with the content and the thought leadership.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): To drive the show a little bit more. When I have groups that are 24, and under every single person shares in the beginning. They might get a minute and a half only, but we do check in after I warm people up and intro and ask some journaling questions, right? But everybody speaks in to the containers.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and I'm presenting material, and we're doing whatever we're doing. But there's more opportunity for that each person bringing their things, and then 24 and over, I would say, is more of a course. Where again you can have a lot of sharing and a lot of processing and individual time. But that's where
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): your curriculum is is mostly gonna dictate what's happening, even though you're responding to the group as well.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so no hard and fast rules there don't get too caught up in it, but
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Just something to think about. And then the other thing to think about. That is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the pros and cons of a bigger group in a smaller group. The bigger group is like all the glory right? And maybe some more income like more people. But the con is, it's less intimate. And it's the
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the bigger a group gets by nature, even if you're gonna do all the things that I'm gonna teach you to have tight containers. By nature, the bigger a group gets the looser the container is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right. So when I have a group that's 12 people. Everybody is showing up for every session and staying rightly to the very last minute, and doing all the things and always reaching it right. It's a very tight container. But programs with bigger people with more people that's not always gonna happen
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): that make sense. So there's pros and cons to everything.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): okay. let's see.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I am going to make a little bit of a bonus recording of components because I want to move on to bonuses and pricing.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So we can call bonus. There's always a lot of questions like, what should I include bonuses? When what do I include is my bonus, you know, etc.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We can call bonuses. A special kind of program
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): component.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): First thing is to say is, you don't have to include any bonuses in your program. It is 100% perfectly acceptable to not have a bonus.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I do like to include bonuses in many of my programs for a few reasons. Number one.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): because I have a lot of content. and I want to get it in there. Not all of it right. But I do. Number 2, because generosity is one of my values.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and I'm
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): being generous throughout the entire program. But it just feels like another way to be generous, to give bonuses
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and number 3. It happens to sometimes be very good for sales. because people are like I get all this, but then, for the same amount of money.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I also get this and this and this and this.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): There's there's a psychological component to that. That makes a program oftentimes look more attractive.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the question always is, what it? What what do you make into a bonus like? What? What should the bonus B or the bonuses?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And here is a way to think about it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Have, if you're gonna include bonuses, have it be something that will either enhance
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the results
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of the program
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): or
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): something that is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a prerequisite. And what I mean by prerequisite is.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it's a good bridge that will help enhance
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what you're teaching in the program, so something that will either enhance results or enhance help. Prepare people to get the most from what you're teaching
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): in the program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So let me give you some examples. So first in this course, life, changing courses.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): This is about creating your program and creating your curriculum, and then the best quality and the most transformational. You know, curriculum and course
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): facilitation rate that you can create. But that being said, I know that for a lot of you, what is going to enhance
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): your results, IE. Like having creating and leading a course that's gonna be phenomenal is filling that course
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right? So even though
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): there's not a promise in life changing courses that I'm gonna teach you exactly how to fill your course and how to write like, it's not a business coaching course. I do include as bonuses.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): This business bonuses like the business retreat that we're gonna be having in a few weeks
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to enhance for you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Another example is the coaching genie subscription. So I can't. And it's not in my expertise
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to teach you exactly how to use a platform and give you all instruction on which which platforms to best deliver your program and all of that like. That's not my jam.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): but
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for some of you it will enhance. It will help you create your program to have this subscription to coaching Jeannie, where you can test it out, and you have the 3 months, and you have a platform there to deliver your program with.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): does that make sense?
Okay?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So take a moment and just jot down some ideas that might be coming to mind
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for your program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What's something? Now again, you don't have to include a bonus, but maybe it's like one of the steps that you're like. Oh, I don't really have time for it, and it's not exactly necessary, right? Or maybe it's something else. What's something that might enhance the results or enhance the tools that you teach?
That could be a cool bonus.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and please share thoughts in the chat.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Podcast pitching bonus. I love that that's really cool recorded meditations. Yes.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Who else? What other ideas are coming to
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): no one else, for now. okay, I know we've covered a lot today.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): let's talk about pricing. And this will be the beginning of the conversation, and we absolutely can continue the conversation moving forward.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the question often is, what what's the price? What should the price on the program be?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): my most important
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): kind of piece on that that I want you to take, which might not be satisfying. But it I for me to share with you is first. The first most important piece is that there's no rule.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it should never be a should.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what I want to invite you is to not think about the market. and
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): or at least not too much right like. What would this be out there?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): For many, many reasons. the biggest being that the market
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): might not reflect your personal values. I'm not talking about the value of your program. I'm talking about your personal values.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so I cannot tell you
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): how many people over the years have told me that I could quadruple my rates
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): because there's so much value in my program, and other people are charging so much more than I am. and I know that, like that is true. I could.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and I always slowly raise my rates a little bit.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But the reason why I'm never going to quadruple my rates is because that would not reflect my personal values.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That doesn't mean that somebody else's values are not as right as mine, or that. My, I I'm righteous. By the way, I'm not II wanna be really clear on that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But what that means is for me. I price my programming at
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what feels like an aligned. energetic exchange for what I am providing.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and the moment that I make the price higher.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): then what feels like an aligned, energetic exchange for me is the moment where I start like the shitty marketing comes in.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): My, the energetics just aren't there for me now you may be on the
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I'm not seeing this for you to under price, because the same goes goes for
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): aligned energetic exchange needs to feel high enough and good right for you
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what you're putting out in the world for the the breadth of your experience and all the work that you've put into creating and then leading
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But the the biggest thing is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it's not about what anybody else says.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): It's really about what feels right to you what feels aligned for you. what feels like
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): you are valuing yourself and all of your effort.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): while also valuing your prospects in front of you.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right? And that's gonna be different for every single one of us.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So that's my guiding principle when it comes to pricing a program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I generally start with. How much of my time
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): is it going to take for me to deliver this program? And I take that into consideration? I take into consideration how much time has it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): you know, to prepare the program?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And then I take into consideration the results
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of the program.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and I use generally those 3 things, and if are there additional costs like if it's in person, am I paying for a hotel, or am I paying for meals? Or you know that kind of thing?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And then II take all of those things, and honestly, I find, like I start with, where in my heart, what feels right. And then from there I kind of look. And I question, and I say, Okay, is this number reflective? And I look again.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): etc.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): So the 3 considerations are
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): time of delivery
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): time of preparation. There's actually 4 results.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And then money that you're going to spend on the program
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): now not to complicate things more. And again, I wish I could give you a formula, for this is how you figure out, but it's just it's not like that. and I'm happy, by the way, to to brainstorm with anyone over these weeks and help you find what's aligned for you
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so not to complicate things. But there is one other piece about this that I want to share. It's kind of like the chicken or the egg question with pricing and programming, which is
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what comes first, the price or the struct program structure.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I guess what I want to share about this is sometimes
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): a program comes out of me because it's like.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Oh, my gosh! Like with advanced it was like, Oh, my gosh! I want to have this whole toolbox of techniques that I've been teaching like on the slide, but not in a formal way. And to go deep into shadow and like this needs to be put out into the world right? And so II go through the process of what the program is. And then I saw how big it was, and you know, and then I priced it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But sometimes
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): IA program comes about in a little bit of a different way. It comes about in a. It would be good for my business model to have a $500 offering sometime in the next 6 months to warm people up
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): for something else right? Or it would make sense for my business model because of income needs to have an X dollar amount
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of program that's bigger.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And obviously, I, it's also still coming from the heart. I'm thinking of a topic all of the things, but then I will mold. In that case I will mold the program structure to the price
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): versus determining the price based
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): on those 4 things that I mentioned.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): some of which is program structure, right? The amount of time of delivery.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I hope that doesn't confuse things further. That's helpful to think about.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Alright. I'd love to hear
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): what is popping for you on this. What's feeling important. What's sparking?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): What questions. You have.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Jen.
Jennifer Rose Gens: the question about
Jennifer Rose Gens: the difference between the one on one and the group.
Jennifer Rose Gens: Obviously, to me the one on one would be priced higher. Do you have an example of how to like how much higher versus like the 500 offering of the group program?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I really don't, because it's so like personal.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Yeah, I don't. And some of it is about the time like what's in the program and time.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): because
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): some of my shorter privates.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): like every now and again I'll do a 4 month stand on privates. I have some group programs that are more expensive
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): then
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the 4 month. But those group programs include so much and are longer. So that's why it's about
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): the time it's about. It's also about preparation time like privates. I don't prepare for at all
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): results. You know, it's kind of like all the thing.
Jennifer Rose Gens: Okay, yeah. Actually, that that helps makes me feel like
Jennifer Rose Gens: what I've got. Don is just fine.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Natty.
Natty: Hi, So I'm in the middle of creating a program, you know, with you here, and it's something that I've I've done kind of loosely in the past.
Natty: That is like 3 month program for like early coaches. Oh, where'd you go?
Natty: for like kind of visibility to help them be more visible. A lot of sematics. But also I'm like a branding and marketing person. So but most of the women I work with are pretty early stage and so I have like I've always feel like I'm in this conundrum where
Natty: I give so so much like so many people say I'm an over deliverer, but it's not out of like a needy place. I really love my work. And so II purposefully work with groups of 12 or smaller, because I'm like I want to be in there doing copy like I just I love love love. I offer like extra sessions all the time.
Natty: So right now I have this 3 month program priced at $3,000.
Natty: And I, just as we were talking as you were speaking, came up with this idea of like, okay, I'm going to
extend the payment plan.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so
Natty: it's a longer. So it just feels more palatable. I guess I can't not charge like
Natty: I'm spending more, I mean spending so much time creating it and everything, and like
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): no, you shouldn't right. It's an aligned energetic. It would not be aligned if you went under $3,000. I'm hearing that so clearly from you. So I do that sometimes, too, where the payment plan
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): extends out beyond the actual amount of months
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): of the program, doing that pros and cons to everything. Right? So the pros are that more people can afford it because it's a lower monthly thing, which is great. Cons are
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): people might
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): drop out, and if they do, it's like you've delivered, possibly even the whole program. Now, hopefully, people aren't gonna drop out. But like, there's there, is that right? It could happen and then you don't get the payment. So
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so there's the pro and con of that. I do it like with sacred depths. I can't remember if I did it with life changing courses or not, but I do it for sure, with sacred depths like you said to make it more palatable, so that people can step in
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): by and large 99.9 9 9 of the time it works out. But then sometimes it doesn't, and it's like, Oh, I delivered the whole program.
Natty: So would you, would you?
Natty: Would it make sense to make that extended plan payment plan like available for a short amount of time?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Or does that? Yes, so there's different. There's different ways. You can do it so it can be a time thing so that the people that have had their eye on it. They're like, Oh, my gosh! I want in, but they just really need it.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): They can only get it in a certain period of time. And then that payment plan goes away. That's one really great way to do it. Another way to do it is that
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): to give a bonus for people that pay in full.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): so that there is the motivation. If you can pay in full, there's the motivation to do that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But then you also have the plan.
Natty: Okay, I like that second idea, like the bonus for paying full to like an extra strategy, session or something. It can be an extra strat. It can be a one on one session. It could be a special group thing. It can be a
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): extra review of something that you're looking at, you know, whatever it is.
Natty: Alright, I'm feeling more in alignment.
Natty: I think alright. Thank you. I'm so glad, Cecilia.
Cecilia Kremer: Yeah. So my my question is is related to this one.
Cecilia Kremer: So what I find happening is, I plan, and I. Then I offer this price and I feel good about it, and I'm all lined. And then the program starts
Cecilia Kremer: and I love studying. And then people bring up these questions and these situations, and then I find myself like
Cecilia Kremer: extending myself and studying more. I mean, there's a little bit of like, not enough kind of energy that I don't like going on. And but then what happens is I find myself spending a lot of time
Cecilia Kremer: in between, let's say, sessions And and there's this moment when things start to to shift for me, it's like it starts not to fill a line anymore. Because then there's other stuff in my life that I wanna do that I'm not doing it. So it's like a maybe a boundary issue.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Oh, that's what I was gonna say is, my, my guess is that there's an inner piece here that's around a boundary. That's around enough. That's around.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): you know, it's it's okay, right? And so, yeah, I'm so glad that you're bringing it up because II would love for you to kind of do
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): some work on that and
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I'm going to say something that
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I think is important might be a little controversial, but you can take it or not.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): because I teach a lot of classes, and I give a lot of value. And and all of that generosity is a value of mine. it's okay to sometimes say I don't know.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and that can just be. I don't know, you know, period or it can be I don't know, but I think you could find out
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): here. or it could be great to Google that right? Sometimes it's like, I don't know. And I'm gonna find out
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): right in appropriate moments where it's really within the scope of what you promised.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): But then it's other moments where it's like, I don't know. Does anybody else in the group know
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): or I don't know. I think you could. Look here here here.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): or I just don't know.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I don't know. What do you think about that?
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I'm gonna give one other option for not for looking for content, but just for anyone else. That's asking. Yeah, we can't do. If someone's asking for a lot of support. And it's just you're giving and giving it too much time. We actually don't have time for that and the scope of the program. But there is an opportunity to buy an extra session, one on one session with me. That's another one we're giving, giving too much. So, anyway. How does all of that land for you, Cecilia.
Cecilia Kremer: You know I think I like this idea of offering some of my extra time, I think, being attuned to him when things are. you know, when I'm reaching that tipping point.
Cecilia Kremer: And
Cecilia Kremer: because I mean, I guess I'm okay with not knowing. It's just
Cecilia Kremer: it's just like diving deeper and deeper into my content. And
Cecilia Kremer: so it might also be. I teach that in a different program.
Cecilia Kremer: Yes. yes.
Cecilia Kremer: okay, yes, I like this. I like this, and I like the opportunity to to explore one on one. And I usually that's part of
Cecilia Kremer: one of the bonuses that I have is a one on one session.
Cecilia Kremer: And I that could be. I could just say, that's a great opportunity to use that bonus. And we can work on this.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): That's right. Yes, because they're already getting that. Yeah, I am. I all I I love to give as much as I can and give more than I promised.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And at a certain point
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): it's gonna cross over the line into. I feel resentful. I feel tired by that.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I feel like I'm giving more than is aligned for me right? And that's where we know we have to.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and then go to these other things.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): And, by the way, for you and just for everyone, every now and again, every now and again it doesn't happen a lot. But every now and again it's like there's another thing which is like an Oh, shit!
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): I should have actually included that topic, and I didn't. And so that is on me. And I am going to go and spend the extra time and prepare on that, and present on that, but that's usually the exception to the rule.
Cecilia Kremer: Thank you. Sounds like I have some criteria to like. Whenever I'm in that space some options to see what feels better and
Cecilia Kremer: brings me back to Alliance Base. So thank you, Joanna, for that. I'm so glad you're asking.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Okay. As I said, everything that we looked at today is a beginning of the conversation, not an end. I'm not expecting this call call for you to know all your components and your pricing. But I want you to start thinking a little bit more about all of these pieces. Please continue to ask questions.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Ask in the Facebook group. We'll always have time in class for some queues as well. I want to continue to
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): look at your work if you're willing to share it with me it's exciting for me to see what you're working on.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): and we will. I will always find if you're feeling like. But I don't know it's not good, I promise you. I will find the pearls with you in it and help you continue going.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): We didn't cover today. This will be the last thing, and I know we have to wrap. Speaking of time in a session, we I did want to talk a little bit about continuing groups.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): rolling admission versus closed groups and accountability components. So I will over the next days.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Make a little supplemental recording for all of you, and we'll drop it in the member center.
Joanna Lindenbaum (she/her): Alright, I'm sending you lots of love. You soon.